A Homosexual’s Response to a Christians Response to Homosexuality

A Female Bible Warrior talks about homosexuality here.

Well, I had a longer response, but it got eaten somehow and lost in the ether.

Okay, well, I guess I was wrong to think that you were open to a curious and compassionate discussion.

It’s disappointing to me, but as long as you genuinely don’t understand what is so wrong with your slippery slope nonsense and you can’t see what harm that people putting their personal morality above the law and equality of other people and what harms that this causes for living breathing people.

Because you might want to consider, given the global nature of the internet that when you say that you’re a Christian, depending on a person’s experience and understanding of history – you are saying Christian and only you know what that means to you – and I was curious enough by how you wrote to see if there was something to get to know.

Instead of curiosity or compassion, you tell me that I am not equal in your eyes and I never will be. There is no discussion possible between inequal people of what they have in common or what they can learn from each other; because you view me as lesser value than you. Because you are not connected to understanding the natural world or the nature of the public square. That makes me sad that you are living in a nation that started a grand experiment – a society where individuals were and are the social unit of consequence with the freedom to take liberties with whatever makes you happy.

But instead of that discussion, I get compared to someone who has an attraction to animals and that my marriage to my partner of 17 years is less valuable than celebrity or prisoner or game show marriages because at least those are straight people.

That’s how you are coming across to me – and other people will and can be hearing something very different than you mean, ranging from: systemic sexual abuse of Children, Meth off of Hookers, Big Hair and Bigger Embezzlement Schemes and the eternal terror/dread of being caught with a dead girl or an alive boy.

But worst of all, they are more likely hearing isolationist, puritanical, end of days hysteria – like Chicken Little not understanding that it’s acorns and not the sky because Chicken Little got a religious disclaimer instead of science class.

Is that what you want to be seen as?

Or do you just not want to realize that that’s a possibility and go back to a Christian bubble reality where everyone else is just a perpetually rebelling teenager or dedicated to immorality and of no consequence to you.
Because it seems to me that if you want to be a Bible Warrior – then you need to know what you’re up against, it’s an up hill and not a pretty battle.

Unless you are only going to battle with other Christians over the details.

22 thoughts on “A Homosexual’s Response to a Christians Response to Homosexuality

  1. Pingback: Freedom, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness and Freedom of Speech | Nina's Garden

  2. Why is it so hard for people to understand that North Americans do not live in a theocracy?

    “I believe in equal rights for all people… who accept Jesus as their cosmic security blanket and magic father figure. My kind, loving god says fags should be killed, so, sorry, I’m just better than you.”

  3. Pingback: Responding to Answering A Christian’s Response | Random Ntrygg

    • Warrioress,

      If you want me to beleive that you are capable of having any positive feeling for me as a specific breathing person, please don’t come back to my blog with the intention of changing my mind about your religion.

      The answers that you have found for your life within religion are too small and limiting for my life – and I don’t presume to know what’s best for your particular life – especially when I don’t have any actual knowledge of what your life is like.

      So, it is deeply offensive when you try to force your religion on me without:

      1. My conversational consent to Go There

      2. Not knowing what my experience in the world has been because of your and other religions.

      3. Not knowing anything about the world that I inhabit.

      • Not trying to force anything, Random.. sincerely. I was just offering a fyi only.. I thought you might find it interesting. Certainly whatever you choose to do about religion, sexual orientation issues, or anything else, for that matter, is entirely up to you. Never thought any different.

        • Yes, I know that you have nothing but good intentions, the problem is that you cannot have a conversation in relationship with me because you do not accept my personal sovereignty as being equally valid to yours.

          So, until you can see others as people and understand them as they understand themselves – which includes an understanding of their place in the world within their understanding of the world

          You can only have surface conversations with everyone because you are only in the world, you are not of the world.

          As much as I would like to talk to you, until you come out into the world – and see what Christianity’s actual impact has been on people who are not Christians

          All you are doing, is heaping more Christianity on them

          and you have no idea what people’s emotional response based in their experiences will be

          because all you see is that it works for you and are presuming that it would work for anyone, if they just got into the program.

          and maybe, just maybe, you should think that the reason that people aren’t in the program, is because they tried it and it didn’t work for them.

          I told you on your site that I was interested in you and your ideas. And I saw what you wrote about gays and lesbians.

          As a lesbian what I read on your was that I am never going to be good enough just as I am. You will never be happy for me that I found a partner for life. That I have pets and family and ideas to spare, that I want to leave the world in a better way than I came into it.

          I don’t have time for people who don’t think that I am good enough, because I live in Mr. Rodger’s Neighborhood, where everyone is welcome and welcoming.

          Maybe you should consider whether telling people that they aren’t good enough – just as they are – is really all that Christian as you relate to Christianity – not what historic or traditional Christian ideas and concepts say – but what you feel deep down in your body.

          Because to me, the conversation that we had was a little bit of bantering and then you started hitting me. So I left your site and you followed me here and kept swinging at me.

          • I really have to disagree. It was *you* who started swinging at me, from my perception, Random.

            You see, you don’t have to agree with me about anything and I’m just fine with it. I am fine and dandy with you no matter what you believe or how you live your life. You, on the other hand, were not fine with me. If you go and re-read your comments on my blog, it was you who essentially blew me off because of my take on gay marriage. You could not accept my differing opinion on something that you personally cherish (which I completely understand). It was you who was intolerant of our differences, not me.

            I knew you were fairly hostile to my beliefs as soon as you stated that you were atheist and lesbian, but I was cool with it. I told you I have nothing personally against anyone in the glbt community for a variety of personal reasons. You, evidently, have something against those who don’t agree with you on political issues, however, like gay marriage. I’m sorry about that. I sincerely feel it is you who couldn’t handle the differences between us in the communications that ensued — I am sorry about that.

            My blog is always open to you, though, regardless, but I won’t return and “harass” you further on yours, unless I’m invited. Take care.

          • I’m sure that the conversation did seem that way from your side.

            But that’s the problem of your side being wholly contained in a small universe contained with your religious reality.

            Until you know the context of my comments, you can’t understand the full content of my comments.

            And you can’t understand the context of my comments from inside your universe.

            We can exchange thoughts and ideas, but we can’t exchange any meaning without a common frame of reference.

            and inside your universe, anything outside of it – like atheists and lesbians – are never going to be good enough to share your universe with you by your own rules and admission.

            And, as long as you can’t pop outside of your universe now and then, then I can’t share anything meaningful with you at all.

            So, again, thank you for the conversation thus far – I wish you all the best in your life.

  4. Keith I could not agree more:

    ‘There are several teachings in the NT that I don’t think she subscribes to, and I look forward to seeing how she dismisses these.’

    The Rabbi called Jesus in the NT had wisdom under his belt (and probably Mary Magdalene in his arms…) We also need to be realistic about a book written hundreds of years after the death of the Rabbi. It is like playing Telephone: truth gets twisted. Most Christians refuse to look at the Gnostic Gospels or the Gospel of Thomas which were found later but did NOT fit with the Jesus that had been Created by men. The Old Testament ceased to rule after the ‘messiah’ arrived. Why bother with the OT anyway?

    I think if you look at the historic Jesus, the man, and read the NT with an eye on history and mans desire to control land, natural resources, people etc you find a very different view of what Jesus said or did. Historically this man, this Rabbi, Jesus, was a revolutionary. He was saying the exact opposite of what the OT Torah said. He was a wild man with wild wisdom; if he was a rabbi at all. Surely his words that shook the establishment came from somewhere; you can’t just make up mind bending new ways of thinking and spread it like wild fire. Love Your Neighbor As Yourself wow. Very different than An Eye For an Eye, wouldn’t you say? The words became twisted as the gospel was written. Land, money, slaves, co-opting the pagans, the NT became a tool of control. There IS Great wisdom there and it totally contradicts the OT.

    just my two cents….

    • funny how history is populated with revolutionaries who if successful, become the establishment that a future revolutionary will overturn

      and it’s this lack of turn over that’s the root problem

      Every generation chaffes under the rule of their elders

    • I agree that the Bible cannot be properly interpreted without proper context, including the culture it was written in, and the messy process by which it came to be written and canonized. Frankly, in light of these things, it becomes a lot harder to see the Bible as the inspired word of God rather than a product of human religious fervor. If you want to maintain a belief in the sanctity of the Bible, it’s best not to find out too much about its origins!

      I disagree, however, that Jesus said anything that was beyond the reach of an intelligent human being living in his time. Many of his ideas may have been counter to his particular culture, but they were not original in the world of intellectual thought at the time. Indeed, the idea of the Golden Rule, encapsulated in “Love your neighbor as yourself”, had been around for centuries before Jesus.

      Even if Jesus had never heard of the Golden Rule before incorporating it into his teachings, I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that a normal human being could arrive at this idea on his own (after all, that’s what Confucius did centuries earlier). All it takes is someone who is particularly sensitive to the suffering of others. And there are lots of people like that.

      • exactly – more than likely, the Jesus of the bible is an amalgamation of a number of prophets that were around at the time – espousing a similar philosophy.

        frankly, the Occupy Movement is closest to the Bible Jesus than the teabaggers

  5. I have been enjoying reading your responses in The Warrioress’s blog. The thing with a lot of the commenters there is that they really don’t get that “I am no bigger of a sinner than you are” is really stupid and condescending when you do not believe you are “sinning” at all in being who you are! I have also posted a response to her blog and I would greatly appreciate if you could take a look and let me know your thoughts.
    http://skepticalseeker.com/2012/01/01/answering-a-christians-response-to-homosexuality/

    • I cannot return to Warrioress’ blog because she cannot see me as an equal person in what equal means to me – and until she is willing to see me as an equal within her world as it is – then I can’t bring her into mine – because to her, curious compassion are just words.

      In fact, I’ve just healed a woundhole and to keep it sealed, I won’t be sharing on other people’s blogs – I’ll be inviting them to come to mine, because I will be too busy generating curious compassion that I won’t have time for other conversations and as nice a person as Warrioress is, she’s too far away from the light of curious compassion to feel the love possibilities it engenders.

      • I’m can’t say I understand completely how you feel about this. But I may have a close analogue in how I felt incredibly dejected for a while by my mother, who seemed to act as if my atheism was some problem I had. As if I was an alcoholic, or had some weird mental illness, but she loved me *anyway*….Grrrrrr. Things have improved since then, though I don’t know if it’s her mental attitude that has changed or just her behavior.

        • As long as she is trying to save me

          she is not bothering to get to know me.

          and how can you presume to know the answer for someone else

          when you don’t know what questions they are asking?

          • And, as long as she is trying to save me

            she’s not letting me get to know her

            so there’s nothing for me in an exchange with Warrioress and other fine people like her – and I don’t have time for exchanges of nothing.

            I am about content – not the construct.

  6. Nina, it is with great pleasure that I nominate you for the Versatile Blogger Award! Your blog is an amazing amalgam of intellectual inquiry and activism! We NEED you!
    Please see my blog for guidelines on how to accept the nomination.
    Happy New Year my Friend!
    Jen

  7. I initially posted this reply where we were having the discussion, on my blog, but I’m reposting it here so you’ll be sure to see it, Random.

    I hope you’ll continue our discussions as there is more I have cited that I would like you to read through and consider. I want to be compassionate and loving with you, but I just cannot compromise on my very firmly held beliefs and will not.. not for anyone. I hope the new year brings you closer to a realization of Jesus Christ and who He is. I hope God draws you to Him; this is really all that matters, in my opinion, more than anything else right now.Random, just to clarify your first sentence where you say:
    “Okay, well, I guess I was wrong to think that you were open to a curious and compassionate discussion.”

    I’m most definitely open to a curious and compassionate discussion and have attempted to behave in that manner and write in that way. I cannot change firmly held views though, no matter how compassionate I may want to be. I’ve thought my positions through politically, very deeply.

    Despite my feelings and beliefs about gay marriage, I still believe that the lgbt community should have the same benefits in their unions that straight people have in theirs. I do not think of them as “less than.” I definitely don’t think of them as less than myself. As WP said, we have all been locked up in something or the other. I can only share to a limited extent on a public blog what my issues have been, but I assure you that they are certainly nothing that would make me “better than you.” We ALL struggle with being different from others and we all have our own personal issues.

    The slippery slope implies that when we allow marriage to be redefined, *everyone* will feel entitled to marry; everyone will demand legal civil rights and equality — we have to draw the line somewhere legally. We have to take a legitimate stand and set a boundary at some point; I have set mine at what Jesus Christ Himself stated and defined “marriage” as.

    No matter our differences in opinion, Random, I care about you as a fellow human being on this planet of ours. I believe you deserve love, respect, and everything that anyone else deserves.

    I absolutely do not look down upon you because you’re gay. If you think this about me, you are mistaken. You don’t know me. I assure you this is not the case.

    I appreciate your continued participation here and your comments. And I only want to see you happy in your life and hopefully blessed by God and knowing Him as I have come to know Him. Your selection of a significant other is not my business and I am not your judge and jury. This is not my place. My place is to love you and share my faith and love of Jesus Christ with you and I have tried very hard to do that. I apologize if you’ve been offended by anything I’ve said thus far as it is not my intent to offend or hurt you in any way in these discussions.

    Random, just to clarify your first sentence where you say:
    “Okay, well, I guess I was wrong to think that you were open to a curious and compassionate discussion.”

    I’m most definitely open to a curious and compassionate discussion and have attempted to behave in that manner and write in that way. I cannot change firmly held views though, no matter how compassionate I may want to be. I’ve thought my positions through politically, very deeply.

    Despite my feelings and beliefs about gay marriage, I still believe that the lgbt community should have the same benefits in their unions that straight people have in theirs. I do not think of them as “less than.” I definitely don’t think of them as less than myself. As WP said, we have all been locked up in something or the other. I can only share to a limited extent on a public blog what my issues have been, but I assure you that they are certainly nothing that would make me “better than you.” We ALL struggle with being different from others and we all have our own personal issues.

    The slippery slope implies that when we allow marriage to be redefined, *everyone* will feel entitled to marry; everyone will demand legal civil rights and equality — we have to draw the line somewhere legally. We have to take a legitimate stand and set a boundary at some point; I have set mine at what Jesus Christ Himself stated and defined “marriage” as.

    No matter our differences in opinion, Random, I care about you as a fellow human being on this planet of ours. I believe you deserve love, respect, and everything that anyone else deserves.

    I absolutely do not look down upon you because you’re gay. If you think this about me, you are mistaken. You don’t know me. I assure you this is not the case.

    I appreciate your continued participation here and your comments. And I only want to see you happy in your life and hopefully blessed by God and knowing Him as I have come to know Him. Your selection of a significant other is not my business and I am not your judge and jury. This is not my place. My place is to love you and share my faith and love of Jesus Christ with you and I have tried very hard to do that. I apologize if you’ve been offended by anything I’ve said thus far as it is not my intent to offend or hurt you in any way in these discussions.
    BibleWarrioress@aol.com
    the warrioress
    http://lifeofafemalebiblewarrior.wordpress.com

    • You seem like a nice person with a lot of love to offer, but I don’t fit into your WarrioressVerse because it’s too small a place for me and you aren’t prepared to step outside of that and meet me – Verse to Verse.

      And I am on a path of curious compassion towards, not mere world peace – because frankly, that’s not working out for us anymore – towards Coexistance.

      Your inability to navigate your WorldVerse and the actual world, means that you aren’t Rabbithole ready.

      So, I can only respond to you – not to the substance and content of your words, because I am not interested in the words – I am interested in you and you cannot be interested in me when you do not accept that I am an equal person to you.

  8. I think this post gets to the real meat of the issue, namely the reasons for justifying Christian belief.

    Warrioress believes she has found reasons to adopt Christianity, and so she is proceeding to do exactly what we’d expect of someone in her situation: she’s taking to heart the teachings of her chosen ancient religious document, regardless of how discriminatory they may be, because that’s what she believes her god expects of her. These teachings do not, in many ways, reflect advanced, Enlightenment values backed up by scientific evidence.

    The question, then, is why she has adopted Christian beliefs in the first place. We also need to ask, as I am trying to do on her blog, if she is uniformly consistent in the application of her worldview. There are several teachings in the NT that I don’t think she subscribes to, and I look forward to seeing how she dismisses these.

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